Episode 3 - What Is the Future for SEO Tools Post-AI - Enterprising Minds Podcast
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What Is the Future for SEO Tools Post-AI Video and Podcast Transcript
[This transcript has been lightly edited to ensure readability]
Dave Dougherty: Hello and welcome to a new episode of whatever this is. Alex, you had a topic via a text chain that I think I want you to explore more if you don't mind. Or we can pick a different topic, but we're just going to go jump in and be free-spirited as it were.
Ruthi Corcoran: Test and iterate. Continue.
Alex Pokorny: Yeah. We've had some pretty big topics as we have discussed outside of the podcast, so let's try to narrow it down a little bit and talk about from a kind of an enterprise SEO stance, but also just from your personal workflows.
The tool set. So tools have changed rapidly with SEO over the last five, 10 years, drastically even, and we're seeing the next iteration of that. I know it's going to be an ongoing topic with our podcast about AI and how that's interfacing with SEO and how that's kind of changing things with SEO.
But where do you see the tools kind of going in the next couple of years? And where do you see it playing out and how it will affect your life and your work life?
Screaming Frog, Looker Studio, and Google Analytics 4 (GA4)
Alex Pokorny: One for instance. Kind of moving back a little bit, not so much AI, but just a little bit more just advanced programming, we’re seeing with the growth of things the as-always named SEO tax: Screaming Frog.
Screaming Frog started out as a really, really basic crawler. Didn't really pull much. There was another free tool called Xenu that's still out there and didn't do much better than that one. [Screaming Frog] eventually kind of built up and it became easier to use. There are some little visualizations, but not much. It's pretty much just a spreadsheet data-heavy kind of a thing.
But lately, they added issues, so they started listing out, you know: Here are some things based upon the data. We just didn't grab the data. We're now actually giving you a little bit of analysis to it, and you can click in and see. Here are your broken pages, which include 404s, 410s, and all the other 500s other kind of stuff. Here are a little bit more pages that are pretty light on content compared to the other ones.
Stuff like that. Not just giving the percentage of text to ratio, text code ratio or something like that, or word counts. But now it's actually giving a little bit more. Um, so as that kind of chain continues, where do you see the tools evolving?
Where, and what kind of things do you think the tools will do? What kind of things do you think we'll no longer do ourselves, and how is that going to kind of affect your day-to-day?
Dave Dougherty: Yeah, I think Screaming Frog's a good shout just because it is a really good example of a tool that was built for a very specific purpose. By a single person or a small team and it's gotten really good. It's gotten some really cool features on it now, for really not that much money. Like you wanna talk value for money in a tool Screaming Frog would probably be at the top of my list and at this point, we have no affiliation with them. It's just a really good tool that we're recommending.
So the cool thing that I've been using it for, not necessarily in an enterprise setting, but for like the one-off hobby stuff is the automated crawling that then gets exported out to Looker Studio, which is formerly Google Data Studio.
And having that reoccurring scheduled crawl that automatically exports into that sort of data collection, and visualization platform, along with all of your other data is awesome. Especially with what Google's doing with GA4 and the automated analysis there. That to me is really where a lot of that stuff is coming up, or where the tools are going. Which is fantastic.
Ruthi Corcoran: Can you talk through that Dave, a bit?
Dave Dougherty: Sure. So if you're unfamiliar with some of the new stuff that Google's doing, um, in six months from the time of this recording, Google will shut down its old Universal Analytics. That will be no more, and it will be on this new GA4.
And if you go into analytics right now, there'll be these little like starburst, data things on the side. If you click that, it will automatically analyze all of the data that's in there and will tell you specific things of interest, so 60% of your traffic is coming from this particular channel, or people coming from social media tend to do these behaviors.
Which is really nice because that's exactly what you go in for anyway. But on top of that, the more you interact with GA4, the more it learns what you prefer to see. So then it will give you that data right away. You can also type in a question to say like, I need to know the likelihood of direct traffic converting on this particular form. And that's really nice.
On other data platforms, I haven't seen that. Yet. I think it's coming. I think that will be kind of the standard. I mean, you can do it on an Excel sheet too. You know, that capability is already there. Right? Like, synthesize my data. It's wonderful.
My only call out on this kind of stuff though is with the automation, you know, it's the same kind of stuff with the ChatGPT stuff that's really hot right now. I get concerned with how people will just start short-cutting things and will sort of lazily do things without critically thinking.
So, you know, like, I just told ChatGPT to create this blog post and now it's up, and then…You know, I'm waiting for the day when Google comes out and says, Yeah, we figured out how to see all the bot-created content. And all of that will be delisted. And then you will have these thousands of websites that people have created, or an entire year's worth of blog posts that people have created that just go to trash instantly. And of course, you'll see all the news articles on how the world's burning. And this is awful.
No, it was lazy marketing. You bum.
Ruthi Corcoran: As a quick note maybe before we move to ChatGPT because I think we could talk for hours on that.
Thinking about, Alex, your question about sort of tool stack and where it's going and how it's evolving. I think, Dave, you sort of illustrated a good journey that we're seeing which is we've got this major shift towards automation of all of our tools. Right? You don't have to sit there and do the manual crawls and export and you don't have to sit there and do all the analysis and insights. I mean, of course, we do need to look at those and be critical about it, but it's becoming much more sort of, "Hey, here's a jumping-off point." and a lot of the things that we need to do are made easy. And I think that's going to be continuing more and more.
It's just sort of a streamlining of the things that we've already done and then we go along with it to make sure, Oh, okay. Yeah, that checks out. Or, Ooh, there's a question. I've gotta look into that. I think that sort of mindset is still important as we move forward.
Automated Prompt Limitations and the Advancement Curve of SEO Tools
Alex Pokorny: I want…it's kind of two topics. I guess there's always the advancement curve. It's actually a funny thing. So in Minnesota, we get a lot of snow and I saw my news app saying there's going to be high precipitation or high humidity. You know, You're really going to love that air conditioning today!
And I was like, oh, because it's a hundred percent chance of snow. Yes. I guess it will be humid precipitation. Like it tried an automated prompt and it was based on one little piece of data, which obviously wasn't complex enough to actually really understand the situation. I'm not going to be running my air conditioning. Thanks. It's freezing. No.
And then the other one is like the, Oh no! AI's going to steal our jobs! sort of question because that always comes up whenever there's any kind of technological advancement. Doesn't matter if it's the light bulb or what, but there's always going to be that kind of question.
A weird kind of thing that I tried…Once I had a business partner, and we tried to create our own SEO software. A lot of it was kind of based off of kind of some crawling tools and then some analysis that was kind of based on that from the like. The thing is, it always stopped there, and you could get the analysis.
The same thing it sounds like with what GA4 is going to do. You can get the analysis, but then it becomes the question of: On our system, with our company in our situation, how do we actually do something about it?
It was a stopping point every single time. And we were kind of looking at it largely from a technical SEO perspective. It wasn't really a phrase then, but that's really what we were looking at. It was just crawl data and robust .txt file stuff. But then it became a question of whether you are running WordPress. Are you running Magento? Are you running, or are you using Shopify? Are you using Square? I mean, what? What system are you using?
How are you actually going to change it? How are you going to actually implement it? It becomes this huge stopping point where you still need the experts in the room. to get the data, know how to use the data, know how to even ask the right questions in the first place And then you kind of move it along as it goes.
Like you still need the developer. You still need some individuals who are pretty darn smart to even know, okay, social media's converting at a 10% ratio or 10%. Is that good? Is that bad? How are you going to actually do something about it? There are so many other questions there.
Ruthi Corcoran: And I think the fantastic benefit of a lot of the progress in our toolset is that those first couple points of getting the data and analyzing the data are made so much easier. In the situations I've been in in the past, that's half the battle.
If you don't have analytics or an insights team, you gotta get scrappy and you gotta do it yourself. And that takes a lot of time. The time you could have been spending on those other steps of the process. Now you can. You can spend a lot more time affecting change rather than trying to figure out what the change ought to be.
Alex Pokorny: Oh, absolutely.
Steroid Scandal or Moneyball Moment?
Dave Dougherty: The thing for me though, as I've been playing around with AI and watching all of the posts on LinkedIn and everywhere else about all of the cool things people are doing with it. And some of the shady things that people are doing with it. I feel like it's exactly…Well, that's too strong of a, I need to couch my terms.
I feel like it's representative of baseball in the late ‘90s, and early 2000s when the MLB had all the steroid scandals. You know the gameplay was amazing because you had Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa hitting 70 home runs each season. And it was amazing.
Now they just have a little asterisk next to their name because, you know, they were caught using. Right? And I feel like that's going to be similar to AI, where you feel the pressure to use it because the productivity gains are amazing.
However, is it actually representative of your brand? Will it actually come back at you for whether or not you're kind of cheating? Right? And because it's so early days, it's like, you have to just kind of have to figure that stuff out.
Or is it like the Tour de France where everybody's doing it? So if you don't do it, you're just screwed.
Ruthi Corcoran: I think we need a new analogy for this. ChatGPT is steroids. I was thinking more along that when you brought up baseball, my mind immediately went to Moneyball. Where it's like all of a sudden we have a new set of tools that allow us to look at this game very differently and we get to level up our ability to succeed at the game. And it's a mindset. It's a different lens.
Alex Pokorny: Yeah.
Dave Dougherty: Through the analytics piece is a particular thing, however, one bit of context that I didn't bring up yet, and I actually had an earmarked to bring it up as a separate section. But to your point, they should have been put together. Mark Benioff, the Salesforce CEO came out with the, you know, people at home aren't as productive. Which I take issue with. And he has his right to his opinion. But I think he's wrong.
And with the tool stacks being as useful as they are and helping with productivity so much, right? Like, if you can go to ChatGPT and you can get starters for 12 months of blog posts in an afternoon, and then you spend the next three weeks just copy editing and making them fit what you need. That is fantastic.
However, if there's this expectation from leaders that everybody is going to be this like superman or superwoman of productivity because of the tool stack, well that's just a false assumption. And if everything is automated and everything is just like, Well, you have the data and you can make a decision in 30 seconds because you have all a year's worth of data. And it's compared to the competitors and yada, yada, yada…
Like there's some give and take there.
Alex Pokorny: There's, I always think with SEO, especially looking at the past, is that the only easy day was yesterday. I think I'm stealing the Navy SEALs phrase there, but it gets more difficult every single day because the tools are easier to use. There are more of them. They're cheaper. More knowledge is shared. More people are coming up, coming out of either schools or just kind of naturally through their use of the internet to have more knowledge of how the internet works and where that goes.
I mean, you go 10 years ago no other company was not really digitally savvy. Now they are far more digitally savvy and the people around them are. Entry-level folks are better than they used to be. I mean, there are all these changes that kind of happen, but it also means the whole market changes along with it. So, exactly. So it's a building effect.
Okay. So ChatGPT comes out and some people can write a whole bunch articles very quickly. Great. As soon as everyone is doing that, that just becomes your standard and then it's still up to the individual. It's still up to that small team. It’s still up to that small amount of knowledge to really break people on to the next level and have them be able to succeed at that level.
Like your kind of Tour de France example of, Hey, that's now the baseline. We still have to move past it because that's the baseline and we're going to have to move past it. The assumption on what it can do, what it's going to be enabled, and all the rest of that I think has always become a falsity too.
Let me throw another analogy at you, and this is not my own. This is from the Making It podcast, David Picciuto and Bob Clagett. I think one of them, I can't remember which of them brought this up in the idea of AI, especially around the idea of product design and imagery. This is their analogy, which was an interesting one, talking about early hip hop being not music. Because it's sampling and because it's taking other people's music. It's not their own music. Instead, it's not music at all.
And then the counterpoint, or the additional point to it, was all AI comes from machine learning. Machine learning means that these are things that are already existing in the environment that it's learned from. Which is the same as us.
If you ask me to draw a picture of a cup, I'm going to use my experiences, and what I've seen, and that's going to be the design that's going to occur. Same thing with AI. It's doing machine learning, which means it's just looking at what's out there already in existence, and then it's following the same maybe grammatical rules, you name it, and it's producing that blog post, that piece of content.
So is it any different than basically sampling music, which as we all now recognize now, is a musical style, like electronic music? Yes, it absolutely is. If you look at the basics of music and just how many notes we use, we're all kind of stealing from each other somewhere, iterating off each other.
So at what point, is it, you say this AI piece of content is the AI's piece of content? And what point is this AI's piece of content your content? Where's the line that you would put in this? And I think you guys are probably going to have different opinions on this of where you see that.
Ruthi Corcoran: I don't know that I have an opinion just yet. But my mind immediately jumps to…there's this famous court case about at what point is it copying versus art? And there's something about it changing three times, or was sort of the line that was drawn in the sand, and then it's art, but otherwise, it's copying.
And the thing is, context matters, right? Like, and, and it's…I'm going to pause there because I'm probably going to think through this a little bit more and Dave's going to say something I'll be able to react to and it'll be wonderful.
Alex Pokorny: Inflammatory statement. And go.
Dave Dougherty: That's my specialty.
No, I think AI's going to be really interesting to watch AI content in the legal side of things because, you know, you have all of this precedent for what is copyright. And I'm sure in the early cases against sampling will come up as exhibits in the cases. But I'll leave that to the lawyers and the politicians to make those laws for us to work within.
I think there's, to your earlier points, I do feel like there's, there's a couple of things, right? There are always pros and cons to everything. On the one hand, it is really exciting that the quality of content can increase and that new standards can be there. Strategically, however, that also just puts more importance on the harder things. What's the experience of the content? How does the audience react to it and change to it? Right?
Because if they're going to believe that everything is AI written, what are going to be the markers of the things that they should trust?
Like you see this on, Facebook or TikTok even, where you have people reacting to…I don't know. One that popped up the other day was this person in, I think it was Japan or Korea, making a Mountain Dew popcorn. God help me, I will never eat that. But, you know, it's 15 seconds so why not watch it? Oh, it is nuclear green. Okay, cool.
But there were people reacting to it and commenting on whether or not this was legit. And they specifically called out whether or not there was a jump cut or if it was the full thing. And that was definitely there. Like people are becoming savvier with video editing on social. So that they can see: Oh, you know what? That's probably where they faked it. Yeah. Because they did this jump cut.
So, you know, being on the performance side of things, like video, conference speaking, all of that is going to be more of that trust factor for marketers and businesses down the road, because that is the hard thing.
Going and being in person, speaking to real people, standing for something. Like if you stand on a stage and make a declarative statement, you're going to get some flack for that no matter what. Because automatically a third of the room's going to disagree with you. And that's fine. That's part of the process. That's part of the fun. Right?
Will Companies Need As Many Marketers After ChatGPT?
Dave Dougherty: So I don't know. My head is kind of ping-ponging with all the pros and cons of this stuff. I am excited by the tools stack. I'm always playing around with new tools and what could work with that kind of stuff. But I do think that the days of having 20-30,000 marketers for these huge global enterprise companies are probably gone. You just won't need that many.
How's that for an inflammatory statement?
Ruthi Corcoran: Yeah. Yeah. Let's go there. I'll come back to the AI. I've got other stuff to say about ChatGPT, but…
Alex Pokorny: We're good. We're good. We're good. Left field.
Ruthi Corcoran: Right? There's, as we all know, marketing encompasses a lot of different things, right? So we say like, the days of big marketing organizations are gone.
Depends on what you mean by marketer and what that entails. Because if you're talking about teams of lots of copywriters, sure. . Yep. Probably you don't need as many. You might need more editors. That the premium on that goes up. But I keep coming back to the idea that these tools enable us to do more.
Certainly, they're replacing some things we're doing, but they allow us to do it. So there's a larger premium that goes on, say experiences both online and in person. So now suddenly you just have a shift in what these teams are doing to focus more on authentic, trust-building type experiences with customers.
Alex Pokorny: I think there are kind of two on that one. One is Ruthi, your points, there's a complexity feature that runs in there. Just kind of running back to that statement I made looking back, I think what we were doing was called technical SEO. Yeah, well at that time there was no such thing as technical SEO because it just was SEO.
Eventually, we got to the point where there was specialization because there were enough tools. Enough, you know, competitive nature out there that had mattered to actually have someone full-time in a working technical SEO versus non. There's still, I would say, a couple of different sides to SEO, but they keep splintering.
There's the agency I worked for and I realized at one point that we were dominating when we did email campaigns. I wasn't part of that team. They did fantastic work and there were seven skill sets to send in one email because there was a copywriter and a graphic designer. There was a front-end developer who cut up those Photoshop files and put them in the HTML. There was a database administrator who actually ran the whole thing. There is analytics. There's, I mean, you name it, a project manager on top of it. There were literally seven different people who wrote or were a part of one email to be sent. And they, yeah, they did really good work and they did fantastic. Partially because of the skills, the team, and the complexity of it.
And yeah, you can use MailChimp. But my gosh, that team will beat you every single day of the week because they are just that much more expert at that particular thing. So I think the marketer standpoint of we won't have many people painting billboards, but, you know, we still have people installing billboards out there too.
And creating the graphic design that actually enables the digital billboards. Like the sizing, scaling, and the effort that has to go behind that is different. So yeah, typesetters are out. Copywriters are still in. Roles change, but people change too.
Another part that makes me think about this is too, one is kind of Zappos and they always try to create their moat, kind of the marketing side moat and that competitive edge by creating tons and tons of videos. They, at one point there's like three or four different full-time studios that were just constantly cranking out videos of Zappos employees holding a shoe, playing with it, showing it off, and that was it. Like, and they just created tons of them. Some of the quotes you can still find about how many videos they're producing per day were insane.
But from a competitive side. Competitors couldn't just suddenly create thousands of videos and ChatGPT can create lots of text. Great. But it can't create imagery. DALL-E can create some imagery, but it's kind of weird. I mean, there's, we're getting there. But video, like TikTok, as Dave mentioned, that's still being done by humans.
I mean, still, is that next level now. While the expectation of maybe the 90s was that you'd have a yellow page listing and maybe a webpage. Then it became who has more web pages? Who's doing better on the internet? Technology changes, the people change. The difficulty level is there too.
And then the last one that I keep thinking of, sorry, I'm running into too many different examples here, but the last one was if you think of cell phone usage of like 1G, 2G, 3G, 4G…I'm just going to use those letters instead of going through the details on them. But in the beginning, you had basic calling, and after that you had texting. It wasn't really great and you had a green screen with a yellow kind of background for what you were saying.
Dave Dougherty: 4, 4, 4, 4. 7, 7, 7, 7, 9, 9, 9, 3, 3.
Alex Pokorny: Yeah, right. Exactly. I was an expert at doing that underneath the desk. Blind, I could write whole messages out and there was worthless skill now, but the changes in those kinds of bandwidths, changed our day-to-day lives because text messaging became a really common thing. Instant messaging became a common thing.
Basically, one and two, and then basically we got to 3G. We started doing imagery. So you could start doing MySpace and you couldn't do video. You couldn't do TikTok because my gosh, no one can have the bandwidth download to handle TikTok, video, 4G, and wifi connected abilities, especially the kind of letters we're on.
Now we can do that. 5G, we could download an entire DVD in a couple of seconds. Then you can have a full AR experience, VR experience, because you have so much video bandwidth downloading that, that becomes a possibility. Like TikTok isn't even a thing. And it couldn't have been a thing in the mid-90s, the early 2000s, mid-2000s.
I mean, it's like finally, you have to finally get to the technology state where you can to this level. Then everything just upgrades to that point. The expectation is that you are a content creator. You are not writing, you know, creating paintings, but now you're creating TikTok videos. You have to follow the trend. So ChatGPT I see is like just another instance of: Okay. This is the next technological chat trend.
But it's the same trend line we've been on this whole time. We're just kind of moving along that path. It's an uptick it seems right now, but I'm not really sure if it is as widely adopted as some of the other stuff was.
Ruthi Corcoran: That's a really important point, Alex. I think as, it's just sort of fundamental shifts that we're riding, and when we think about SEO, one of those fundamental shifts was the advent of Google, right? That's where we are. And I wonder if the type of ChatGPT technology is almost akin to another Google.
It's a different way in which people are interacting with the information on the internet and that sort of follows from that. Maybe part of the role that we take on as people who make more visible certain information on the internet, instead of focusing as much on Google. Maybe we expand, maybe we say: Okay, how do we make information more visible within the ChatGPT world? How do we elevate certain information?
Right? Because right now it's pulling from everywhere. What are the mechanisms from which it's pulling and how do we look into that, which has both? Some nice sides to it. And also, you know, there's some black hat going on there that makes me a little nervous. But I think that's part of the evolution that we think of too, as people who make information visible on the internet. That is sort of how I would put our roles in the abstract as SEOs.
Dave Dougherty: Well, and to that point, I think an important sub-context that comes to mind as we go through is everything that we've talked about is true for the Western economies. And context matters. The way you communicate the technology that it's in there. Now ChatGPT in a Baidu experience or a WeChat context, how does that change it?
What are the implications of that? Because that's already a completely different ballgame. There's not necessarily a reliance on the results as much. Or if you look at the prevalence of chat apps. If you're able to create a whole bunch of texts really, really quickly and then flood chat apps with them, what can you do with that? What are the implications of that?
Alex Pokorny: Yeah. There's kind of an interesting, I…Sorry about the inflammatory statements. Number one is, I think Bing will have a second wind to it.
Ruthi Corcoran: Yeah, it will. Good job, Bing. Yeah, they…
Dave Dougherty: It'll get to 7% of the internet and not just five.
Alex Pokorny: Yeah, I know it's point…like 1.5%.
It's a pretty tiny percentage they're playing with right now. But they put in a, I saw a news article, it's just the headline, so I haven't validated yet, but a large investment basically in OpenAI and that they're really embracing kind of ChatGPT and trying to bring it into Bing.
Google on their hand is basically kind of pushing against it. They keep going back and forth, especially from the SEO side of, oh, do they allow AI-created content? Do they not allow AI-created content? They've been mostly on the anti, but good luck on staying that way. I don't know. It kind of goes back and forth.
Ruthi Corcoran: Anti until it's theirs.
Alex Pokorny: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, which is going to be interesting. Because like Bing is embracing it and incorporating it into their tools, and Google's trying to reject it, but that just means that Google gets left behind. At some point, they have to pivot, so. And I mean, they use AI and machine learning in basically everything they do anyways, so I'm not sure where they're really putting the line.
Dave Dougherty: Anti until it's theirs.
Alex Pokorny: Yeah. Right? I guess maybe that's the line. When it's ours, it's fine.
So Black Hat It’s Good Again
Alex Pokorny: The other one just from a black hat standpoint, this is just kind of a funny thing. So, I've always kind of kept tabs, at least on Black Hat World. It's a pretty large forum for black haters. And it used to be really interesting because a lot of people are creating their own tools.
A lot of those tools sometimes had white hat usage, so a lot of work, cheap and free, and a lot of people sharing content and you know, how-to, articles and stuff like that. It's a definitely very entrepreneurial group. Well, yes, there are spammers there. That's kind of the mode that they're in.
I revisited that site recently just out of frank curiosity of saying like, you know, what are they up to these days? What's the latest kind of, there used to be X Room, or there used to be a bunch of different kinds of mass-scale comments, and spamming kind of tools out there. And people post these daily journeys and those ones I always love because it's very transparent about what people are doing.
They try to use the community to kind of keep them honest and keep them on track to their road to a million dollars kind of thing. And lately, it is all about writing lots of blog posts and posting them and it's like, and they're all like, oh yeah, I'm going to like know scam Google. They, they don't realize, you know, that we use these tools to like figure out the keywords and we're going to like put the keywords in the pages that are like, produce the stuff.
And it's like, oh no, you gotta be producing more content. You gotta be writing it yourself and it's gotta be, hey, going back and forth. I'm looking at this, I'm like, you actually. , act yourself into a white hat corner. Yep. Like that's amazing. It's so bad. It's good. Now going through it, I was like, there's gotta be somebody out here that is like, I've got the latest tool that spams the hell out of, you know, WordPress, Squarespace, something injects. you know, CSS somewhere. No, no. It was basically how to write more blog posts and how to basically make sure that they're not a caught by SPAM rules.
Dave Dougherty: Which is funny because that's black hat, you know? So 15 years ago, like,
Ruthi Corcoran: Moral the story. Don't wear a black hat.
Alex Pokorny: Or if you do realize it's going to look pretty lame, pretty fast, because , the systems that exist will eventually kind of, you know, shut down different avenues and to the point where you can't comment spam the heck out of, you know, Facebook logins.
Ruthi Corcoran: Yep.
Dave Dougherty: Well, on that, yeah, I think on that, um, On that life lesson, we will. We'll stop today's episode. Um, thank you for joining us. Thank you for hanging out. Uh, let us know what you think on a lot of the ideas we've thrown out here. Would love to know what, uh, any of y'all think and I'll see you in the next episode.
Take care.
Ruthi Corcoran: Cheers.
Alex Pokorny: Peace out.
